Democracy, for me is the people meeting, discussing, decideing how to run their community, and extended communtiy which now includes the world.

Perhaps we can determine ways to accomplish this. I hope so.

Welcome all !

Bruce

Bruce A Eggum
Wisconsin USA
http://eggyy.tripod.com

I post this message; many of you may have read it. It shows the way the EU will be dictatorial to all member states “regions” belonging to it.

 I would suggest a first step would be a Bill of Rights, fashioned after the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which would among other things require Habeas Corpus and other legal rights taken away by the EU.

 I would also like to suggest, Afghanistan is “receiving” a new government, so what can we offer the people of Afghanistan to consider in developing their government? Initiative and Referendum? There are some very worthless models out there that do more harm than good. We have not done anything to fix the blocks that exist in I&R.

 Voting? Have we identified the dangers and best methods to complete an accurate election?

 Do we continue with colonialism, capitalism and cannibalism? Or is there a better way?

 Thought we could discuss democracy a bit. Representative democracy could work if the rep actually represented the wishes of the voter??? Is it likely “the people” are ready and able right now to be “direct democrats”? Present efforts indicate an emphatic NO!!

 Regards, Bruce

 Dear friends,

The situation is very similar in Poland, Slovakei, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Estonia, Littuanis, Lettonia, inone world it seems the the strategy and the technic of EU-propaganda is unique.

It is very important  for our european EU-realistic and EU-critical community to unite the forces, and express our oppinion influencing this way (too) the undemocratic fores .

If you agree with the attached Manifesto,  and want to sign it please send back an email back(with the name of your group, country) and even fax these datas it back ( fax 00361-274-6264).

              Thank you very much,

                                                    Gabor V. Gulyas

Magyar Angyal - Hungarian Angel           Civil Control Power ------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------

MANIFESTO ON EUROPEAN UNION

adopted by participants in the International Alternative Conference on "EU-enlargement 2004: unfair methods of colonization", held in Budapest 23 March 2003:-

Aware of the fatal effect of current enlargement of the European Union for the candidate countries and the need to strengthen democracy, the rule of law and respect for human rights in Europe, and recognizing the presence of different kind of dishonest methods in all candidate countries in order to push these countries into the European Union,

we as participants from 10 European countries in the International Alternative Conference on "EU-enlargement 2004: unfair methods of colonization" have adopted the following Declaration:

1. THE EMERGING NEW EU: A THREAT TO FREEDOM

After the collapse of communism the Central and East European countries have won back their freedom, which is the most valuable treasure for them. Now most of them are among the EU candidate countries. The constitutions of all EU candidate countries clearly declare that they are independent and sovereign democratic republics.

Considering the current regulation of the European Union, decisions of the European Court and drafts of the new European Constitution being debated in the European Convention, it seems impossible to preserve state independence and sovereignty and political freedom within the EU.

One recalls the statement made by the EU Court of Justice: "Member states have irrevocably surrendered their sovereign rights to their own created union. They cannot reverse this process by later measures, incompatible with the spirit of the union. And the right of the union, established by proxy, is superior to any dissenting domestic legal instrument including the state constitution."

A framework of a new Soviet-like superpower is now clearly outlined.

David Heathcoat-Amory, a British Tory MP on the Convention says that what is happening is profoundly alarming. The whole Convention is going off the rails.

According to the latest proposals of the planned Constitution, the European Union will be endowed with a single legal personality and a unitary institutional structure. It will be organised "on a federal basis", and everyone will have dual citizenship. The European State will have arrived. Moreover each of the existing EU institutions will get more powers, which they can only do at the expense of national parliaments, governments and peoples. This will do nothing to close the glaring "democratic deficit" in which people feel alienated from the decision-making process.

A new "world order" in Europe seems to be constituted by several recent measures:

Last year the European Parliament voted yes for proposal that will give law enforcement agencies the right to monitor telephone, internet and e-mail traffic. Under this new EU directive, the police and other state agencies will be able to oblige internet service providers and phone companies to keep data on whoever citizens in EU member countries are communicating with and what they are downloading from the internet.

Tony Bunyan of Statewatch, the human rights group that monitors the EU, commented on this issue: "The vote in the European Parliament and the final decision on this issue will be a defining moment for the future of democracy in the EU. If all telecommunications - phone calls, e-mails, faxes, and internet usage - are placed under surveillance not only will data protection be fatally undermined but so too will be the very freedoms that distinguish democracies from authoritarian regimes."

The proposal for a CORPUS JURIS (a combination of an EU criminal code and criminal procedure) protecting the EU's financial interests is an embryo of a future European Criminal Code. According to that the European Public Prosecutor will be an authority of the European Community, responsible for investigation, prosecution, committal to trial, presenting the prosecution case at trial and the execution of sentences concerning the offences defined. He is envisaged as independent as regards both national authorities and European Community institutions. If implemented, the EU would become the sole prosecuting authority in cases of suspected budget fraud, with the right, through its agents, both to conduct investigations into its suspicions AND conduct trials within all member countries according to its OWN rules of law, as described in the Corpus Juris.

We believe that the people of Europe must be offered a choice between an integrated European state administered from Brussels and an association of democratic states founded on the primacy of national parliaments and the wishes of their peoples. Our choice is clearly the second alternative: remaining outside the barriers of the European Union, in a partnership with all European countries and the EU and EFTA.

We support the proposal to transform the EU into a Europe of Democracies (ED), which shall be a treaty of association of free and self-governing European states and an open economic area.

2. THE UNFAIR EU REFERENMDUMS

Currently in Hungary and in all other candidate countries all these criteria are being breached.

a./ The question being put in the referendum is misleading and not fair, because the question ("Do you agree that Hungarian Republic become a member of the European Union ?) is not capable of being responded to as required in this case.

A full and fair question would be: "Do you agree that Hungarian Republic become a member of the European Union according to the agreed accession treaty, thus permitting EU law to override national law in any case of conflict and without providing for any right of withdrawal from EU membership?"

b./ The Hungarian people are not adequately informed of the details of the Accession Treaty or about the contents of EU law which henceforth is to regulate their lives irrevocably. Up till now there is no official translation of the Accession Treaty, nor of the 20,000 or so EU laws and regulations that must be adopted in Hungary. Only an unofficial draft of the Accession Treaty can be found on the internet in recent days. No publication has been distributed about these matters in order to explain their legal background to ordinary electors.

The electors are entitled to have a full disclosure of the legal and other implications of the said documents in order to be able to decide their fate..

As a consequence there will not be enough time for a full debate or to give citizens sufficient knowledge to enable them make an established decision. The official Government campaign provides no detailed information. Its main task is to convince people by referring not to facts but to emotions, and to conceal the potential disadvantages of EU accession for Hungary.

No one warns Hungarian voters that by joining the EU they are being committed to abolishing the forint in due course, for the Accession Treaty commits them to joining Economic and Monetary Union (EMU), and that consequently control of interest rates and the exchange rate will eventually move to the EU Central Bank in Germany, which is responsible for the euro.

No one draw Hungarian votersâ?? attention that in the EU Hungary will no longer have the power to sign trade treaties with other coutnries, and that in future this will be done by the EU Commsssion on behalf of the EU as a whole.

Do they realise that in the EU Hungary cannot make any change in none of the EU laws, even if the Hungarian government, people and parliament are totally against it?

c./ The government is spending a budget of more than 2000 millions HUF (ca. 230 HUF = 1 Euro) on its EU campaign. All parties in the Hungarian Parliament are for YES and make official propaganda for it. EU-critical groups and parties get no governmental aid for their activity. The mass media represents only the YES case, opposing opinions remain unreported. A tipical sample for that how they boycotted last week the press conference of Hungarian Crown Land Protection Movement and World Federation of Hungarians about unconstitutionality of the referendum.

d./ The Hungarian referendum will not be monitored by any kind of impartial body. Opposition organizations will not be represented in monitoring bodies and there will be no manual recount of votes in order to control official result. Control of the referendum will be exercised only by the Hungarian parliamentary parties, who are all for a YES. 

e./ State offices and non-national bodies, especially those of the EU institutions and representatives (Romano Prodi, Pat Cox, Guenther Verheugen, Jean-Luc Dehaene etc.) have been continually interfering in the Hungarian national referendum campaign and trying to convince people to vote for the EU.

Summarized: it is clear that the government is ready to use any kind of unfair means to reach the pre-decided result.

3. THE ECONOMIC DANGERS OF EU MEMBERSHIP

In the present condition of Hungarian agriculture and the nationally owned enterprises, accession to the EU could be like a suicide note signature. The average price of agricultural land in Hungary is only about 10 % of the EU average. The minimum wage in Hungary is recently 50.000 HUF (217 Euro), the minimum pension 21.800 HUF (95 Euro) per month.

Almost 90 % of large corporations are owned and controlled by international companies (the energy sector, telecommunication, agricultural processing firms etc.). Although Hungarian agriculture is able to produce food for 30 million persons, because of the restrictive quotas prescribed by the EU Accession Treaty this Hungarian agriculture could effectively be heavily decimated, especially its backbone, the family farms. 

4. EU MEMBERSHIP AS DIVIDING HUNGARIANS FROM ONE ANOTHER

After World War 1 (Trianon Treaty) and World War 2 (Paris Treaty) almost 4 Million ethnic Hungarians were cut off from the fatherland, and live in the neighbouring countries of Romania, Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine, Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia. For Hungary to join the EU without settling the problems caused by these unlawful and injustice treaties could create a new iron curtain between the Hungarians living in Ukraine and Serbia and in the other part of the Carpathian basin and could undermine the Hungarian communities living there. For example in Kárpátalja belonging recently to Ukraine or in Voivodina belonging to Serbia a Hungarian pensioner will have to pay the equivalent of 4-5 months pension to get a visa permitting a move across the border towards Hungary, when the visa system envisaged by the EU's Schengen regime comes into place this year.

<>This will decrease the chance to survive and to maintain Hungarian identity for the Hungarians in these countries.<>

Budapest, March 23 2003.

Since democracy is chooseing by election, I thought perhaps we could consider “how to vote”.  Bruce,

Vote Scam

[Main Index]

11/16/2002 Entry: “VOTE SCAM ARCHIVE”

VOTE SCAM ARCHIVE

How will we get rid of the electronic voting machines if that vote will be held on electronic voting machines?

voxfux

It’s a dream come true for the New World Order tyrants - Election Machines owned and operated by the New World Order itself. And a sheeplike populous conditioned after years of conditioning to easily believe that anyone questioning this dark force is a loony “Conspiracy Theorist Nut.”

This dark force has spent decades destroying the critical capabilities of Americans for just this purpose - so that their movements go unnoticed. And now the machines are in place. It’s called Tyranny.

So here goes - And this is not a conspiracy: This is YOUR REALITY

All electronic voting machines have, stored in their volatile memory, (ram) several lines of code which are designed to appear to be a “glitch” or programming error. It is this error which will hand strategic victories to key Republican candidates - not all - because that would be too obvious. Like evey other move that these knights of the New World Order make, they will do it gradually. But with electronic voting machines in place, that cannot be audited by law, and a voiceless populous, powerless and complacent, the pace of their conquest will accelerate at light speed. You will see a major Republican sweep in the next Presidential election. But back to the computer “glitches.”

The reason why these several lines of computer code are designed to look like an error is in the unlikely event that this scheme is discovered - an eventuality that is highly unlikely. It is not expected that these completely legal “errors” (all errors are legal) will ever have to face the light of scrutiny for several reasons. The first reason being that there is ZERO public oversight of these machines. We simply have no mechanism to sequester and verify the integrity of these machines. They are top secret. We are not allowed to have independent scrutiny. Why?

Secondly even in the unlikely event that we could examine one of these machines, the first thing that would have to be done would be to unplug the machine. Unplugging the machine zeros out the volitile ram memory and with it, the glitch. (requiring a re-boot)

Then the system is rebooted, an operating system is reloaded from a non volatile memory (Rom) which does not contain the error. The machine can then be examined with full confidence by it’s Conservative Republican designers that no irregularities will ever be discovered.

Here’s how it’s done. A capacitor can sit up stream from a dormant volatile ram register. A capacitor which could hold a sufficient enough charge for one operating system to initialized on, possibly with the help of the tech support of the election machine group. That charge could run out, zeroing the malicious code from ram. it could be in the next register up on the same initial ram. Upon re-boot you could easily have the new system (minus that tiny little “glitch” I mentioned before load from a rom that is in fact without the glitch. This capacitor can be charged with the help on an administrator during the preparation of the machine... The capaciter releases it’s charge over a 24 or seventy two hour period - malicious code vanishes - end of story.

The malicious code can even be in a flash memory segment which can refresh itself at a preprogrammed time, say, the close of the poll. If the machine is sequestered for examination it is presumed that it will be seized after such time as the election polls have closed. The memory flashes with no need for human intervention - purely by the clock which all of the machines have - end of story. That “glitch” register toggles the main program and overrides it during the actual election, until the set time, at the close of the election. When the memory flashes, it kills the glitch, and toggles the main register back on which is the one that is unblemished. You could re-boot it a thousand times and get a good and valid program, but that doesn’t that was the program that actually tabulated the results. This code is not rocket science there Grasshopper it’s pretty simple stuff. I expect a bit too simple because these amatures fucked it up. Using some simplistic sets of integers to derive a predetirmined error of a set percentage, these fuckers didn’t test it. I imagine that there is a ratio of integers in that machine that tabulated the funky repetitive numbers. That malicious GLITCH revealed itself in all the victorious Republican Candidates throughout the country who got 18,181 votes. OOOPS. You won’t see that happen again in the next revision of the “Glitch”, Or maybe you will because the illuminati intelligence agencies posing as news channels such as CNN ABC CBS AND NBC will never inform you of this strange anomalies. YOU WILL NEVER KNOW.

considering how fast the Hegelian cycle worked in this instance they didn’t have time to test their new secret weapon - Their, “Preprogrammed Consent Machines.” (Florida 2000 = Bad machines + 2 VERY SHORT BUT APPARENTLY BUSY YEARS LATER = MACHINES WITH PRIMITIVE MULTIPLIERS IN THEM WHICH WERE UNTESTED AGAINST THE EVENTUALITY OF REVEALING MULTIPLE EXACT TABULATIONS. OOPS. = UNQUESTIONED VICTORIES ANYWAYS ON ACCOUNT OF A SOCIETY WHOSE MINDS HAVE BEEN OBLITERATED BY YEARS OF THE STULTIFYING TELEVISION - Divided by - DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP WHO SHOULD ALERT US OF THE VOTING MACHINE PROBLEM BUT ARE SILENT, CONSISTING OF NUTERED SHEEP LIKE DASCHLE. AND THE REST OF THE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP WHO PUT DEMOCRACY IN PERIL BY BEING WILLING LAMBS FOR THE SLAUGHTER.

YES FOLKS, THANKS TO THE COMPLETELY OBLITERATED CRITICAL CAPABILITY OF EVEN OUR SO CALLED EDUCATED CLASS, THESE AND OTHER ATROCITIES OF THE BROTHERHOOD OF THE ILLUMINATI WILL GO UNNOTICED. WE WILL FALL INTO DEEP OPPRESSION. YOU WILL SEE DEATH SQUADS IN AMERICA SOON.

THE END OF CONSENT. THE END OF DEMOCRACY. The imposition of a brutish thuggish force not to protect us but to quell us whan we’ve had enough. And it was easy. It was like taking candy from a baby. And now they are racing with billions of dollars of research into population control and so called non lethal suppression technology. Non of it designed to combat some foreign threat - Wake up! - It’s designed to supress us right here at home. Our founding fathers would spit in our faces for fucking up that which they risked their lives for. Americans who stand for this sham are a disgrace. BUT IF WE FIGHT BACK WE WILL WIN ! GUARANTEED ! They will do anything to convince us that we are powerless. But the fact is that we could rip them limb from limb, they just don’t want us to know that. All we have to do is realize this fact, learn the facts surrounding our current condition and then simply stop playing their game. And they will dissappear.

But if we allow these machines to be installed throughout the nation then we will get everything we deserve. The republicans will sweep the nation and the world will surely suffer a nuclear holocaust.

Here’s an archive of this chilling development.

ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINE SCAM

“The concept is clear, simple, and it works.

Computerized voting gives the power of selection, without fear of discovery,

to whomever controls the computer,”  - James & Kenneth Collier,

authors of VoteScam (1992)

“There are no documented cases of electronic vote-rigging occurring anywhere in the country, but only because it’s nearly impossible to prove.”

“Hand counting is the gold standard

against which we check machine counting efficiency.”  - James

Baker

“Those who cast the votes decide nothing, those who count the votes decide everything.”

·         Joseph Stalin

“I think it is safe to say at this

point that the election of 2002 lacks any credibility at this point. Too

many “mistakes”, too many malfunctions, too many missing documents, too many

dirty tricks, all combine to destroy the illusion that the results to be

announced have any basis other than in wishful thinking by those in control

of the vote counting process. Certainly the sudden abandonment of the VNS

exit polls suggests that the actual polling results are so far out of

alignment with the desired results that the media predictions had to be shut

down.”

Votescam.

This is as good a place as any to start and this is what initially sparked

my interest to really dig into this story and find out more. Go to the link

marked “Chapters” and read all about it.

face=Arial>

http://www.votescam.com/frame..html

Vote of No Confidence - Everything you need to know about stealing elections

http://www.conspire.com/vote-fraud.html

For all its apparent benefits, touch-screen voting is not a panacea, according to several nationally recognized computer experts. There are no documented cases of electronic vote-rigging occurring anywhere in the country, but only because it’s nearly impossible to prove>

http://www.kioskcom.com/article_detail.php?ident=1021

The elephant in the room is vote theft on a massive scale

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Editor_sDesk/editor_sdesk.htmlIt is now effectively illegal for citizens in 49 states to count their own votes on election day.

http://www.votefraud.org/Intro/index.html

The Greatest Cover-Up Of All: Vote Fraud In Americahttp://www.votefraud.org/Archive/Write/greatest.htm

CalTech and M.I.T. Computer Experts—Hacking the Machines http://pub103.ezboard.com/fsoldiervoicefrm4.showMessage?topicID=24.topic

Why One Tech Maven Fears Computer

Votinghttp://www.notablesoftware.com/Press/WSJ..html

Rebecca Mercuri loves computers. But when it comes to counting votes in an election, she favors plain old paper. Computers, she says, just can’t be trusted with our democracy. http://interactive.wsj.com/public/current/articles/SB985032601926471110.htm

Voting Machine Technology - It’s Not Secure - Have elections in America been rigged to slowly, but surely shift power to the right? In the secretive world of voting machines, anything is possible. http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingSecurity.htm\

Right-wing, radical political activists financed

USA’s largest voting machine company http://www.talion.com/election-systems-software.html

Who are Diebold? The corporate officers are

as thick as thieves with the Republican hard right religious nut division.

http://www.diebold.com/

When it comes to elections in America...assume

crooks are in control...and then act accordingly. http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0916-04.htm

Thirty-one city newspapers have documented

voting errors that only add to the ballot-stuffing, dead-people-voting,

hide-the-ballots-in-your-trunk, absentee-faking problems of the

past. http://www.talion.com/election-mistakes.html#reports

Computer Vote Counts are

Unverifiablehttp://www.votefraud.org/Archive/Write/unverifiable.htm TESTIMONY OF A COMPUTER EXPERT: The Judge

stated in his ruling that “There is no adequate and proper safeguard to

prevent the computers from being programmed to distort the election

results.” http://www.votefraud.org/Archive/Write/expert.htm

Why we need to know who owns voting machine

companies http://www..talion.com/election-machines.html#Nebraska

Republican Controlled Voting Machines Hand Suprise

Victories to... Guess which party? http://www.voxnyc.com/archives/00000051.htm

Voter News Service sitting on Election Day data

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/nc/story/1902810p-1886603c.html |

“Congress could force these companies to submit

current source code as a pre-condition, if they wanted to. Congress could

keep it secret, so the copyright and trade secret laws would not be

infringed. The Senators or whatever would have to sign non-disclosure

agreements... there’s no valid reason this code is not checked for accurary.

Which leaves only invalid reasons for not checking the code - and that would

be that they do have ways to monkey with the

votes.”

The Real

Scandal Is the Voting Machines Themselves - Computerized vote-counting is

a terrible system. This is only news to those who haven’t been paying

attention. http://www.commondreams.org/views/121400-108.htm

Rage Against the Machine- Machines don’t have

political beliefs. But computer programmers dohttp://www.tnr.com/120400/dugger120400.html

Voting Machine Companies owned by conservative

Republican businessmen, bankers, religious nuts http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingMachineCompanies.htm

Repository for Voter

Complaintshttp://www.votewatch.us/

Republicans dominate the voting machine

business:

Republican Voting

Machines, Election Irregularities, and “Way-Off” Polling

Resultshttp://www.ecotalk.org/MidtermElections2002.htm Voting Machines - High Tech

Ambush http://www.ecotalk.org/Vote-By-Mail.htm

Elections In America

·         Assume Crooks Are In

Control http://www.ecotalk.org/AmericanElections.htm The Nightmare Scenario Is Here -

Computer Voting With No Paper Trail http://www.ecotalk.org/Dr.RebeccaMercuriComputerVoting.htm “The code behind exit poll tabulation

is astoundingly simple to write. And the more simple it is, the less error

prone. Why, with two years and millions (billions?) of dollars could they

not get it right? When I took Oracle 8i, we were taught DB querying on the

first day, and produced percentage based results the first week. This story

is hole-ier than a hula-hoop.”

Florida 2002: Sluggish Systems, Vanishing

Voteshttp://www.csl.sri.com/users/neumann/insiderisks.html#149

http://pub103.ezboard.com/fsoldiervoicefrm4.showMessage?topicID=25.topic

Broward vote total off in reporting

glitch - The

missing 104,000 votes raised questions about the county’s $17.2 million

electronic voting system http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/4460196.htm

Arkansas Republicans went to court to keep votes

uncounted http://www.kark.com/karktv/news/story_tmp.asp?cmd=view&Storyid=4948

A statewide recount in Alabama’s gubernatorial election demanded by

Democratic Governor Siegelman gave victory to his Republican

challenger: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2002/11/07/politics1919EST0782.DTL

Problems in Texas with touchscreen

voting machineryhttp://www.news8austin.com/content/headlines/?ArID=51022&SecID=2

Kansas provisional ballots caused

problemshttp://www.thekansascitychannel.com/news/1771656/detail.html

South Carolina’s voting equipment

creats difficulties http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/local/4459621.htm

“The likely truth is that the “invalid numbers” were showing the

opposite of the intended result. Better to just throw the whole notion of

“asking voters who they voted for” out the window with a cheesy and

unbelievable excuse, and rely on known methods such as stolen ballot boxes

and outright fraudulent punch machines and the like. THOSE methods have been

working for millenia, and that is why the VNS fell back on them, as opposed

to exposing the FACT

the fraud starts and ends at the tippity-top

Nebraska’s election

fiascohttp://www.theindependent.com/stories/110602/new_electionglitches06.sh

New Jersey’s tally delayed by computer

problems http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-nj--votingglitches1106nov06,0,808514.story?coll=ny-ap-regionalwire

MASSIVE POLLING FRAUD IN FLORIDA http://www.voxnyc.com/archives/00000043.htm

Michigan ballot shortages and polling

problems http://www.tv7-4.com/Global/story.asp?S=1002309&nav=1vrjCEZ7

San Francisco ballot

shortages http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=1002487&nav=5D7lCElH

Proprietary

software makes inspection of electronic voting systems

impossible http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110602_elections.html

Republican Manufactured Voting Machines Ivolved in Election

Fraud http://www.voxnyc.com/archives/00000048.htm

ON SCRAPPING THE EXIT

POLLS “I’m astounded

that no one finds this to be of any interest. If you’re going to fix an

election one thing you need to worry about is an outside party monitoring

that election and using well-established and accepted methods of predicting

its outcome. Suppose the consortium had McBride beating Bush by 5% and yet

Bush was declared the winner. Two possibilities: either the exit polling

methodology was flawed or the election was stolen. Are we to believe

that a consortium of the nation’s most prominent news organizations is so

incompetent as to have this happen to them?” href=”http://www.whatreallyhappened..com”>www.whatreallyhappened.com

Massive voter fraud

was being planned for months. The fix was in. Be

warned. This exclusive interview with Greg Palast will boil

your bloodhttp://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/2002/11/04_Palast.html

High-tech voting system working fine

“Go back to sleep, citizen. Nothing to see here!” http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/830822.asp

“I’ll tell you right now, this election

is fixed!” http://www.drudgereport.com/vote1.htm

Flyers were being left on cars in black

neighborhoods warning that voters with outstanding tickets or warrants might

be arrested when they show their ID to vote.  Early voters were met by

poll watchers from the Republican Party of Arkansas who demanded

identification and challenged voter ballots. http://www.pbcommercial.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2002/October/22-2390-NEWS1.TXT

Background Stories

about ES&S Voting Machines href=”http://pub103.ezboard.com/fsoldiervoicefrm4.showMessage?topicID=12.topic”>http://pub103.ezboard.com/fsoldiervoicefrm4.showMessage?topicID=12.topic

Chip Glitch hands

victory to wrong party. Guess which party? http://www.voxnyc.com/archives/00000050.htm

Great Bartcop article on Voting Machine Fraud, Execs GOP

contributions http://www.bartcop.com/110702otter.htm

Fraudulent automated

phone messages in Florida Bush said he was unaware of the phone call

effort - even though the call says it was “paid for by Jeb Bush for

Governor Campaign” http://election2002.tbo.com/election2002/MGARSR0D58D.html

Vote Fraud Texas

style http://www.jshull.org/

There’s only one

reason the exit poll has been scrapped. How could they explain away a

(potential) lead by the democrats and then suddenly have the GOP controlling

congress. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20021105/ap_on_el_ge/eln_voter_news_service

Voting Problems In Orlando, South

Florida “These folks are so crooked they have to screw their socks on in

the morning” http://news.tbo.com/news/MGACF5AHY5D.html

Voting Machines’

Maker Blamed. How Florida bought easily-rigged ES&S Voting

Machineshttp://www.tampatrib.com/MGASSAS976D.html

Manufacturers Admit Voting Machines Unreliable How ES&S

machines have modems, allowing hacking to access & alter vote

tallies

class=byline>http://www.rumormillnews.net/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=5172

The Nightmare Scenario Dr. Rebecca

Mercuri on paperless computer voting fraud href=”http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0805-07.htm”>http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0805-07.htm

Voting into the void - Touch-screen voting machines may look spiffy, experts say they

can’t be trustedhttp://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/11/05/voting_machines/

How VNS helped to rig Nov. 5 Election

for GOPhttp://pub103.ezboard.com/fsoldiervoicefrm61.showMessage?topicID=2.topic

Why did VNS bow out

the morning of the election? Did somebody get a horse’s head in

their bed? http://www.bartcop.com/vns2002.htm

Voter News Service Meltdown -

Washington Post article href=”http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10472-2002Nov5.html”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10472-2002Nov5.html

“Voter News Service (VNS) is a

top-secret private consortium owned by ABC News, The Associated Press, CBS

News, CNN, Fox News, and NBC News. It’s current headquarters is in Brooklyn,

New York. It’s been around (under different names) since 1964. It’s the only

company whose exit poll results are used by the news media to announce the

“projected” winners in races for the president, U.S. House and Senate, state

governors, and select races. With the use of computerized vote counters and

the news networks exclusive control over polling data in major elections,

the gates to election fraud were wide open. Computerized voting machines

have now made election fraud as easy as stealing candy from a baby... If VNS

is helping to rig elections, why are they doing it? The news networks are owned lock, stock, and barrel by the

richest corporations and individuals in the world.

Why did VNS bow out

the morning of the election? - VNS got into a lot

of trouble for correctly calling Florida for Gore after exit polls showed him winning by a comfortable margin.

After that ‘debacle’ they were forced to

completely re-design their computer hardware and

software. VNS’s operations ran on a large IBM mainframe with legacy software. They were forced to get off

the mainframe and on to a completely

different hardware and software platform.

Everything had to be built from scratch. Supposedly, they didn’t have time to fully test the new environment thoroughly

far enough ahead of this election cycle.

Therefore, they chose to use this election to

test the new environment, but not publicly release the

results.

Why does VNS think their “Gore wins”

Florida 2000 projection was wrong? Bush guaranteed he would win Florida,

even after VNS said he lost it. Why is nobody else

suspicious? http://www.bartcop.com/111102bonus.htm

More Magic: winning vote totals

uncanny. County Judge Danny Scheel received 18,181 votes. Republican

Carter Casteel got exactly 18,181votes. Republican state Sen. Jeff Wentworth

also got 18,181 votes. http://www.mysanantonio.com/specials/elections/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=180&xlc=860675

VNS - CIA link? VNS, the guys who are deep

sixing their exit poll data, used an outside company to develop their

computer programs. It turns out that the company is..... Battelle Memorial

Institute, an Ohio-based technology company that also works as a defense

contractor to help build the new VNS system. A Battelle spokeswoman declined

comment on Tuesday’s performance. “ From: target=_blank>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021106/ap_wo_en_po/us_election_vns_6

Battelle was also under investigation during the

search for the anthrax killer. http://www.columbusalive.com/2002/20020530/053002/05300203.html

Rothschilds are part owners of voting

machines. They were also behind the whole Enron debacle. Now they will

be in charge of the software that runs the voting machines. The other owners

have simular NWO backgrounds as well. http://www.rense.com/general31/roth.htm

Think the November 5, 2002 US General Election

went smoothly? http://www.notablesoftware.com/evote.html

Viewer Commentary: 22 comments

Greeting from the Banana Republic of Florida. My take on the so-called “elections” is below:

http://www.falloutshelternews.com/VotingInTheMagicKingdom.html

Voting in the Magic Kingdom

By Carol Schiffler

Just after the September primaries, the St. Petersburg Times ran two photos, side by side, of the Florida gubernatorial candidates, Jeb Bush and Bill McBride. I cannot remember which one was on the left and which one was on the right, but in the end, it really did not matter. The resemblance of one to the other was striking, so much so that I remarked to my husband that Florida’s “choice” boiled down to which beefy, middle-aged white guy we preferred. The election, it seemed, would have been more appropriately resolved in a pie-eating contest than a voting booth, and based on reports of widespread voting irregularities, the results may have been more accurate had the final outcome been based on the ability to consume pastry.

Prior to the general election, the news media – particularly in South Florida – was overflowing with stories about the impending invasion of election monitors from all over the world. Monitors ranged from the local variety, (the Miami-Dade police), to the national, (John Ashcroft’s minion from the DoJ), to the international, (including, much to the chagrin of Florida election officials, a contingent from Russia).

But in the wake of the highly unlikely outcome of Florida’s mid-terms, the much-hyped monitors were largely silent. Having observed, quite accurately, that no African-American voters were actually executed while standing in line to vote, the observers apparently decided to just have a Marguerita, buy a rubber alligator for the kids and call it a day.

To date, only one comprehensive report appears to have been issued on the subject, and the mainstream media is not exactly climbing all over each other to print the results of the study. This is probably because the conclusion of the report, issued by the British Helsinki Human Rights Group, states, without equivocation, “The election seemed at best sloppy, so much so that even elections BHHRG has monitored in ‘pariah’ states of the ex-Communist bloc compared favorably in terms of order and cleanliness.”

In other words, the fix was in. But we knew that.

The BHHRG report was thorough and covered everything from the questionable pre-election redistricting, (which left some precincts with less than 10 registered voters, and carved up minority neighborhoods in such a way that they were virtually annexed onto the stomping grounds of wealthy Republican voters), to the interesting fact that the law firm of Jeb’s “opponent,” Bill McBride, had donated $100,000 to the Bush campaign.

The report really should be read in its entirety, but we’ll attempt to summarize some of the highlights below.

Four “media observation precincts” were established for those wishing to report on the elections. BHHRG witnessed one incident where county media relations personnel were “desperately urging” a journalist to visit one of the four showcase centers instead of making an ad hoc visit to another, perhaps less prepared, precinct. (In other words, go to the zoo and stay out of the jungle.) But what do you expect from a state presided over by the Magic Kingdom of Disney World? One can easily envision a day when one is transported to the voting booth in a brightly colored car running through the heart of a faux mountain where thousands of little mechanical replicas of Jeb Bush wave cheerily to prospective voters, (“Gawd, Earl! He looks so life-like!”)

The Great Voter Purge of Election 2000 remains uncorrected after two years. Well, actually, the report, in its body, only makes reference to the original purge, however it points to Greg Palast’s continuing investigative work on the subject. Floridians are eagerly anticipating the reinstatement of those who were erroneously purged from the rolls. We suspect it will occur some time in 2005.

Jeb Bush’s strong-arm tactics in Florida create a false illusion of support. Following in his big brother’s, (or perhaps that should be “Big Brother’s,” given the Orwellian nature of the current administration), footsteps, Jeb shamelessly wiggles his deep pockets at every corporate whore who comes his way. (“Is that a PAC in your pocket, big boy, or are you just happy to see me?”)

But far more disturbing, perhaps, is his tendency to bully those he cannot buy. The BHHRG report notes that Bush “threatened lobbyists with ‘retaliation’ if they or their clients donated to the Democratic party.” Even worse, the threat did not preclude those who also donated a greater or equal amount to the Republican party.

And the threat did not stop with corporate donors. Apparently the media was also subject to the same tactics, as the report notes one incident where a newspaper editor-in-chief made the unprecedented move of overriding the majority vote of his staff in order to endorse Bush over Democratic opponent, McBride.

Poll workers, as a rule, had no idea how many registered voters were in their precinct, and no idea where such information could be obtained. Several workers said they thought there was a “Big Paper Book” somewhere, but like the Holy Graille, no one had ever seen it.

This made it difficult to make meaningful statements around voter turn out, which based on BHHRG observations, was much lower than the numbers stated by Florida election officials.

“Improvements” to the system caused more problems than they solved. There were a number of topics that might fall under the category of “improvements,” but to simplify and clarify things, we will refer to them collectively as “vote fraud.”

The casting of “provisional ballots,” for example, hailed as an antidote to “Spurned Voter Syndrome,” was really nothing more than another boatload of Disney-esque illusion. “NO ONE WILL BE TURNED AWAY!” proclaimed signs at polling places all over Miami Dade. But what they neglected to mention was the fact that provisional voting did not actually ensure that your vote would be counted.

In theory, provisional voting allows the voter to cast his vote, even if election officials cannot immediately verify his eligibility to do so. Because the provisional vote is cast in advance of Election Day, the understanding is that the verification process will be completed and the voter’s ballot cast prior to the time when the polls close. This process gives a warm fuzzy to the electorate, and has the added benefit of sparing political operatives the annoying and time-consuming task of harassing voters in line at the polls where there may actually be witnesses. As the investigative report points out, “BHHRG has seen this “provisional” system used – and abused – in American-organised elections in Kosovo, where international officials arbitrarily permit or invalidate ‘provisional’ votes in ways which necessarily affect candidate’s vote totals.”

The report also gave extensive treatment to the new touch-screen voting machines which, as almost any computer-literate person could tell you, represent one of the greatest threats to democracy in the world today, (outside of George Bush, himself, of course).

Space prohibits me from an in-depth discussion on the technological ins and outs of screwing with a computerized vote. Suffice it to say that I have been a computer professional for the last twenty years, and one does not have to be particularly clever to write the kind of code that would skew the vote count. A post-Election 2000 piece written by Ronnie Dugger, (“How Safe are our Voting Machines?” The New Republic, November 22, 2000), cites an example where a programmer demonstrated this feat to the author in all of two minutes.

And in case there is anyone out there who is aware of the issue, but thinks that fraud allegations of this nature could be easily investigated and the perpetrators brought to justice, let me raise your consciousness. Even if the programmer who committed the dirty deed was sloppy in covering his tracks, voting machine computer code is proprietary – meaning that no one is allowed to see it except the company who created it. And so, if the accusations start flying, the fox enters the henhouse and proclaims it free of foxes. Case closed.

The BHHRG report does point out one interesting thing about the voting machines, and that is the schizophrenic attitude of the public toward the new technology. While on the one hand, most people who were asked, said they did not trust the machines to accurately count their vote, on the other hand, they inexplicably were enamored with the convenience and ease of use. Enamored, it would seem, to the point of enthusiastic burbling and cooing that led to the overwhelming impression that the machines were positively received. “We don’t care if they count our votes properly! These new machines are just GOBS of fun to use!” seemed to be the bottom line. Need I hammer home the Disney analogy again?

And this is not the only example of an apparent epidemic of voter schizophrenia in Florida. The BHHRG report also makes note of the fact that while urban areas, especially those with an exceptionally diverse population, tend to vote largely Democratic, not so Miami-Dade, which handed an “overwhelming” victory to Jeb Bush in what should have been, at the very least, a close race.

Not noted in the report, but equally as peculiar, was the Florida electorate’s strong approval of some decidedly left-leaning amendments, including one which forces the state to limit public school class sizes, and another which outlaws the inhumane treatment of pregnant pigs. Yet somehow, these same voters, when faced with choosing a governor to oversee these new amendments, selected a man who vocally and publicly opposed them.

Researchers in the field of vote fraud have pointed out that it is not necessary to do “big stuff” in order to change the outcome of an election. It is only necessary to do little things – lots of them – in key, hotly contested races where the vote is likely to be close. In a society where fragmented and incomplete media coverage of current events has caused a disconnect between reality and perception, vote fraud has become a mere parlor trick. Anyone with a black hat and a magic wand can do it. One need only conjure images of Jim Baker during the Florida recounts of Election 2000, intoning, “They counted and they re-counted…you are getting sleepy…and they re-counted again…VERRRRY sleepy…” in order to understand how this works.

Meanwhile, the year is 2002, and Floridians have thrown away their “I Voted” stickers and their “I love Jeb! ™” lawn signs, and returned to their daily lives as if nothing has happened. And they will sleepwalk until 2004 when the brightly colored cars will come for them and take them back to “Mickey and Minnie’s Voting Adventure Land.” Never mind the man behind the curtain.

Posted by Carol @ 11/16/2002 03:14 PM EST

Pulls no punches:

http://www.oscewatch.org/CountryReport.asp?ChapterID=582&CountryID=56&ReportID=189&keyword

Excerpt:

Florida Revisited: An account of the US midterm elections

British Helsinki Human Rights Group went to Miami-Dade County in southern Florida for the November 5^th, 2002, election. Miami-Dade County, along with neighboring Palm Beach and Broward Counties, witnessed some of the most serious alleged irregularities in the 2000 presidential election. This report attempts to address issues about the 2002 election that major press and media have thus far chosen not to highlight, and poses questions about the implications of the 2002 election for democracy and the rule of law in the United States.

Posted by British Helsinki Human Rights Group Report @ 11/16/2002 03:19 PM EST

I am aware of the issue. My bottom line lies with my distaste for pork-pie lies. In keeping with the current thought, I’ve even displayed my digust to the relevant authorities, but an old “duck(?)” like me might not be reading the repies too well these days, (don’t know, don’t read too much?) and it seems that no matter where you turn there’s more lies. I’m sick of asking the questions, my throat is sore, but even when they see my pain, it’s still just “another sympton of getting old”(!). HUH?! If I’m going to get nothing but lies in return then I shant even bother, better off going for a walk, but you can’t say where, cause that’s just a set-up waiting to happen. No sir-ee, not this little black “DUCK”.

Posted by Robert Duck @ 11/17/2002 04:07 AM EST

How can I help Vox??

Posted by Rob @ 11/17/2002 09:54 AM EST

I am fairly new to this site.My interest in the U.S greatly increased after the events of Sept 11^th.I wasn´t conviced by the official line.Since Bush has been in it has been one disaster after another and things negative seem to be gathering momentum with the U.K

now issuing weekly warnings of possible terrorist attacks.Vox your work is good and you have made me aware of issues I previously didn´t give much thought to.What to do though is a problem as the masses are sleep walking,,they look awake but lets face it most are not really living,,merely going through the motions.Big problem.

I found this link although unrelated to the vote scam it is still very much on the same wavelength and philosophy of the vox site.

http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/content.html

Posted by Rob @ 11/17/2002 10:41 AM EST

I am here today to announce my cadidacy for President. You may call me a Demlican, Republicrat, Commutarian, Libunist, or anything you want. My point here is it that it doesn’t matter, ALL of them are cowardly thieving assholes, only interested in keeping their cushy jobs. So, instead of the usual spoonfed bullshit we constantly are bieng fed, here is my stand on the issues.

1)   No war unless attacked, then only in a similar response.

2)Hands off all other countries and their leaders. Like it or not, they made the choice, one way or another.

3)   America first. We have a full plate of problems to deal with, and unless we do, we won’t be in a position to help anybody, so that means,

4)   Cutoff of all foreign aid, exept humanitarian aid, to all countries. Not one red cent for military purposes,for any reason.

5)   Cutting all diplomatic, economic and technological ties with ALL beligerant states, as defined by UN protocols.

6)   Trade deficits would have to be equallized in a two year period, or trade with that country would be cut off

7)   All outstanding debts by third and fourth world countries to the World Bank must be forgiven so as to allow these states to develop an economy of their own choosing, without the spectre of burgeoining debt preventing them fron doing so. If the World Bank fails to do this, a boycott and blockade of all resources under their control, shall take effect immediately in the United States, with all other countries bieng invited to join us in this endevour on a voluntary basis.

Let’s touch on some domestic issues now, it’s time somebody did.

1)   Food, housing, education, clean water, and decent environment, are RIGHTS, not priveleges, and shall be made available to all.

2)   Color of skin, race, religion, ethnic background,language, or cultural practices, as long as they do not posess a threat to others, will not be a barrier in ANY sense, or in any facet of life.

3)Gay Issues. Do what you want in the privacy of your home. As far as I am concerned, there will be no issues, including military service.(This is a positive comment).

4)   I am pro-choice in principle. You and only you have the right to decide this. I personally choose no, as I also beleive that it’s your right to choose whether you go to heaven or hell. Morals cannot be legislated.

5)   The constitution was and is the document we choose to be governed by. It means exactly what it says, period. If you take the oath to protect and defend it, you had better mean it. It would become a federal felony to violate the oath.

This in it’s simplified form presented here, would be the basis of my campaign. No doubletalk, no bullshit, just plain strait talk.

Thank you for listening.

Posted by A REAL American @ 11/17/2002 11:48 AM EST

The RAM has to get it’s information somewhere. When you plug out the machine, sure the RAM will be cleared since it has to be dynamically refreshed thousands of times per second. But when you plug the machine back in, and the operating system loads, the information has to be put back in the RAM. It has to come from some chip so the best thing to do is logically it’s in the ROM that holds the operating system, a function to scam the user input from volatile memory.

I want a real reply to this Vox, prove me wrong. Don’t just remove my comment (again).

First of all, wise man said, “You do not come into the master’s classroom and make demands such as you have, Master doesn’t need Ignorant student’s bullshit. You bad student- you know nothing. You bluffer - You look up and get last minute definition of RAM on Internet and come to forum and bullshit. Your comment about Ram needing to be refreshed a thousand times a second give you away. That is first thing you see when you look up, “Ram for idiots.” Don’t try to bluff me or draw me ou or I will cut you off. I breadboarded complex VLSI circuits for a major Aerospace company 20 years ago. Don’t try to bullshit teacher. This your school, grasshoppa, And I am your auspicious teacher, if you are bad student - Master will expel you from school. But the Master will descend this one last time to your foolish distraction. Here goes grasshoppa: A capacitor can sit up stream from a dormant volatile ram register. A capacitor which could hold a sufficient enough charge for one operating system to initialized on, possibly with the help of the tech support of the election machine group. That charge could run out, zeroing the malicious code from ram. it could be in the next register up on the same initial ram. Upon re-boot you could easily have the new system (minus that tiny little “glitch” I mentioned before load from a rom that is in fact without the glitch. This capacitor can be charged with the help on an administrator during the preparation of the machine... The capaciter releases it’s charge over a 24 or seventy two hour period - malicious code vanishes - end of story.

The malicious code can even be in a flash memory segment which can refresh itself at a preprogrammed time, say, the close of the poll. If the machine is sequestered for examination it is presumed that it will be seized after such time as the election polls have closed. The memory flashes with no need for human intervention - purely by the clock which all of the machines have - end of story. That “glitch” register toggles the main program and overrides it during the actual election, until the set time, at the close of the election. When the memory flashes, it kills the glitch, and toggles the main register back on which is the one that is unblemished. You could re-boot it a thousand times and get a good and valid program, but that doesn’t that was the program that actually tabulated the results. This code is not rocket science there Grasshopper it’s pretty simple stuff. I expect a bit too simple because these amatures fucked it up. Using some simplistic sets of integers to derive a predetirmined error of a set percentage, these fuckers didn’t test it. I imagine that there is a ratio of integers in that machine that tabulated the funky repetitive numbers. That malicious GLITCH revealed itself in all the victorious Republican Candidates throughout the country who got 18,181 votes. OOOPS. You won’t see that happen again in the next revision of the “Glitch”, Or maybe you will because the illuminati intelligence agencies posing as news channels such as CNN ABC CBS AND NBC will never inform you of this strange anomalies. YOU WILL NEVER KNOW.

considering how fast the Hegelian cycle worked in this instance they didn’t have time to test their new secret weapon - Their, “Preprogrammed Consent Machines.” (Florida 2000 = Bad machines + 2 VERY SHORT BUT APPARENTLY BUSY YEARS LATER = MACHINES WITH PRIMITIVE MULTIPLIERS IN THEM WHICH WERE UNTESTED AGAINST THE EVENTUALITY OF REVEALING MULTIPLE EXACT TABULATIONS. OOPS. = UNQUESTIONED VICTORIES ANYWAYS ON ACCOUNT OF A SOCIETY WHOSE MINDS HAVE BEEN OBLITERATED BY YEARS OF THE STULTIFYING TELEVISION - Divided by - DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP WHO SHOULD ALERT US OF THE VOTING MACHINE PROBLEM BUT ARE SILENT, CONSISTING OF NUTERED SHEEP LIKE DASCHLE. AND THE REST OF THE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP WHO PUT DEMOCRACY IN PERIL BY BEING WILLING LAMBS FOR THE SLAUGHTER.

YES FOLKS, THANKS TO THE COMPLETELY OBLITERATED CRITICAL CAPABILITY OF EVEN OUR SO CALLED EDUCATED CLASS, THESE AND OTHER ATROCITIES OF THE BROTHERHOOD OF THE ILLUMINATI WILL GO UNNOTICED. WE WILL FALL INTO DEEP OPPRESSION. YOU WILL SEE DEATH SQUADS IN AMERICA SOON.

And so Grasshoppa, here I am telling you right here and now that there has never been such a numerical coincidence before but you’re so lost and indoctrinated that you can even see with your own eyes the published reports of all the Republican Victors WHO RECEIVED EXACTLY THE SAME NUMBER (18,181) FROM THE ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES, and you would still simply say , “That’s just a coincidence.”

I’ve spelled out three specific ways to rig an “Electronic” election, There’s a thousand other ways - but since I already know what you “Believe” (Based on fraudulent info) I’ll humor you this one time then shit can you if you attempt to take up my time further on this issue. grasshoppa

And p.s. your, “ghetto fabulous” is hurting.

Like I said, this is not your forum. We already know what you think, it’s plain to see. You HATE me, yet you spend a frightening amount of time obsessing over me. Get over it. Remember - stalking is embarrassing. It means you don’t have a life.

Posted by grasshopa @ 11/17/2002 02:20 PM EST

Rather than trying to eliminate every possible way in which the totals might be rigged, I’m proposing a follow-up survey by mail of a random sample of voters, giving us an independent version of the results. Of course, not everyone would respond, but we would be able to say that a particular election result was statistically unlikely. Whether that would be due to electronic tampering, spurious absentee ballots, hanging chads or whatever, we wouldn’t know, but I’m betting that information of this kind would serve as a powerful incentive to change the process in a positive way. Speculation about RAM vs. ROM doesn’t take us far along this road.

Posted by Edward Strauss @ 11/18/2002 06:23 AM EST

This wins my “Most Retarded Conspiracy Theory Award” for 2002. Congratulations!

Posted by Robert @ 11/18/2002 01:04 PM EST

awesome, but it’s discouraging, and their death merchants are laughing all the way to our death.

Posted by rob @ 11/18/2002 05:20 PM EST

Regarding the opening comment, our founding fathers didn’t simply RISK their lives for the system they gave us. Many LOST their lives.

Support the Constitution. It is there to keep the government in check. It is now hanging by a thread.

Posted by Anon. @ 11/18/2002 06:19 PM EST

You’ve really stuck your neck out here, haven’t you? Your comments will certainly polarize people and make them think for themselves. HOWEVER, having ACTED for myself I can find no justification for your claims of “18,181 vote fraud” at this site.http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2002/Please enlighten us further

Posted by human herd @ 11/19/2002 05:20 AM EST

In the comments above, “Real American,” had it right! Our

national salvation is in the

Constitution, and it must be

followed to the letter of the law!

Had that been done, there would

have been no Federal Reserve, no

IRS, and no debt! We would have

Constitutional debt-free funding

under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5, as did the Lincoln administration in the 1860’s!

Posted by John P. Denton @ 11/19/2002 08:22 AM EST

regarding john p denton’s comment on following the letter of the law or in this case the Constitution. There have been legit changes by amendment to allow for the irs, the creation of the fed was by the constitutional power of the congress. if you want to abolish the irs and the fed, get an amendment passed or get the law changed. better yet, get elected to office and work to get the change done yourself.

Posted by jeff in wisconsin @ 11/19/2002 11:08 AM EST

I’m with A Real American & Vox..by the way Vox..*U* R GOOD!!!!!! You know your stuff & Keep it up!!! I vote for -A Real AMerican- for President! Best wishes...God better bless America!!!

Posted by Marilyn @ 11/19/2002 05:33 PM EST

Re jeff in wisconsin: The Supreme Court has already ruled that the 16^th Amendment conferred no new taxing powers to Congress. Also, the Congress had the power to “Coin Money”—printing paper-currency was NOT a power that Congress could have delegated, if we suppose that Congress could delegate its own powers beyond political control (read ‘control by we the people’); that still doesn’t explain away how Congress conferred powers it did not have in the first place.

As far as the IRS (Integrated Racketeering System) goes, http://www.supremelaw.org/sls/31answers.htm may have some useful information to be gleaned. In fact, to all those opposed to my Order, studying at www.supremelaw.org could allow you to Arm yourself with the tools to begin hacking away at the branches of our ‘evil’.

We are very bored without any real opposition. As if a site so easily relegated to the status of ‘conspiracy nut-job’ could threaten us—HA!

Posted by Masonic Initiate @ 11/19/2002 09:44 PM EST

been there, read that, so much bull you need rubber waders and a good attorney to save your ass!

Posted by jeff in wisconsin @ 11/20/2002 08:34 AM EST

jeff, I’d like you to try to cite ONE piece of ‘bull’ from supremelaw.org

Posted by Masonic Initiate @ 11/20/2002 11:04 AM EST

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post.

I find it fascinating that even with your anti-dogmatic morals, you find that a good student is one who sits down, shuts up, and believes what he is told. I find it fascinating that when the authenticity of part of something you have posted is challenged, you treat the poster in a patronising way to gain support from your sheep (by sheep I mean anyone who has applauded a story of Vox’s that did not even once back up what he said). But above all, I find it fascinating that you have the unmatched ability to judge somebody’s entire belief system based on three lines posted in a forum.

You facinated at wrong thing, You like child who go see mona lisa and get caught up in smile. You best look at big picture and not nip at ankle of master. Master not here to satisfy every young student demand and inquirie. Master has no time. Dig it?

The last post I made was asking you to back up one of your stories with sources (I cannot recall which, but I think it concerned weapons manufacturers). You removed that post. What kind of impression does that give me of your site? It says to me that you think only your opinion counts, and any person who speaks out questioning the almighty Vox must be stopped by limiting their ability to speak out to his readers (Heil the Fourth Reich!).

Like master say before, no time to cater to whims and demands of bad student. After all what does student you give to master or masters readers in exchange for masters time to satisfy bad wastes of time. That’s why student has Google. If student doesn’t know about google, student is shithead.

I think your articles are informative. They present a non-conventional view of current events and are very thought-provoking for the most part. However, when you come out with bullshit articles that have no reference to or can backup anything that you say, I refuse to kneel down and say “baaah! great story Vox”, I say “how do you know this?”. Does this make me a bad student? In schools in America they teach you to pledge allegiance to your flag, to pray to God and to believe what the almighty government says. Would a ‘good student’ not question these things before accepting them?

Grasshoper confused, grasshoppa must make descision. This is not forum that young grasshoppa may challenge master. Not yet for master has not yet seen any real challenge coming from grasshoppa. Just weak ankle biting. Grasshoppa is sowing seeds that will bear little fruit.

Why do you automatically assume that I know nothing about computers. I may be merely 14 years old but I know quite enough to understand what you were saying.

Master seriously doubts that student is only 14. Master don’t think so.

For your information, I believe that the Republicans cheated the elections. My post was intended to clarify the misconceptions I had. I wanted you to explain things that you hadn’t explained instead of just dismissing my post and presuming that I DON’T BELONG IN THIS FORUM.

If you have something to teach me, I will learn. But if you have something to say that proves nothing, then there is little point in listening.

If you do not wish to discuss this in the forum, I would ask you to e-mail me your response to this post removing the obvious in my e-mail address.

“A wise man opens his mouth because he has something to say, a fool opens his mouth because he has to say something”—Plato - if that is true which I have tested it to be so.

Posted by grasshopa @ 11/20/2002 01:08 PM EST

It’s a pity I can’t edit my posts here. I would just like to add, what did you mean by ‘ghetto fabulous’?

Posted by grasshopa @ 11/20/2002 01:11 PM EST

to masonic initiate, on the website is the stupidity of a resident of one of the states of the u.s. not being a u.s. citizen and subject to the jurisdiction of federal courts. how is that? also I had to use an alternate computer since the webmaster blocked my access on the one I was replying from earlier. Am I too much the independent thinker to be allowed to post on the site? do they only want sheep?

Posted by jeff in wisconsin @ 11/20/2002 03:56 PM EST

Jeff, you may want to read “The Two United States and the Law”, written by Howard Freeman. This concise yet arguably thorough article describes the venues by which the international bankers (We) have taken over America, and some [little-known] remedies available to you in their colorable (read fake) courts.

Go to google and search for “The Two United States and the Law” or click on my ‘homepage’.

Posted by Masonic Initiate @ 11/21/2002 09:40 AM EST

http://www.voxfux.com/archives/00000058.htm